Thank you Robin, for well argued. However is there anything substantive that can be done in this area to change the situation? I think we need to list out our 'real' options. I agree that once the technical capability is there the temptation is too great for any government to resist. Can laws really help? I admit my aim is to provoke.

best regards

Dorothy K. Gordon
Director-General
Ghana-India Kofi Annan Centre of Excellence in ICT
Mobile: 233 265005712
Direct Line: 233 302 683579
Website: www.aiti-kace.com.gh
Encrypt Everything - https://gpgtools.org https://silentcircle.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Gross" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 November, 2013 2:19:21 PM GMT +00:00 Casablanca / Monrovia
Subject: Re: Sign-On Statement regarding the 2014 Internet Governance Summit in Brazil


Virtually every government spies, both on its own citizens and on foreigners.   What has astounded people about the massive NSA spying operations is the enormous capability the US Govt has to effectuate that spying impulse which all governments possess.  The relationships between the the US Govt and the private US corporations (AT&T, Facebook, Google, Yahoo, etc) whether voluntarily or via force (like a National Security Letter) show the world that it is dangerous to entrust too much with the US Govt and US tech companies.  No doubt this is one of the reasons many in the Internet Governance space are calling for a new arrangement for "oversight" of key Internet management functions away from US Govt and a US private corporation (ICANN).  The US's capability to spy on virtually everyone is the new game-changer, not that govt's spy on people.   While I appreciate the righteous indignation we see displayed by other govt's upset by revelations of US spying, I know every one of them would do the same thing too, if they had that level of capability.  So I don't put much stock in other govt's to fix this problem.  The citizens of the Internet will have to take the lead on this.

Robin

On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:43 AM, Adam Peake wrote:

> On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:39 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> So the problem with the UIS+UK is their competence?
>> 
>> What is scaling up international reactions is hypocrisy.
>> And perhaps a bit of jealousy at not being as competent.
>> 
> 
> oops, scope should have also said scope.  That they target everyone.  scope and scale
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> 
>> avri
>> 
>> 
>> On 6 Nov 2013, at 03:56, Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
>> 
>>> Obviously every state keeps an intelligence service. The major difference between the duo USA+UK and the rest is the scale, persistence and pervasiveness of surveillance -- something orders of magnitude beyond what any other country does.
>>> 
>>> This is what is motivating the scaling up of international reactions.
>>> 
>>> --c.a.
>>> 
>>> On 11/06/2013 09:41 AM, Adam Peake wrote:
>>>> And this
>>>> 
>>>> "GCHQ and European spy agencies worked together on mass surveillance"
>>>> 
>>>> <http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden>
>>>> 
>>>> Brazil's surveillance -- isn't this the kind of spying we'd expect, as featured in almost every spy novel?  Also looks like the US might be leaking back, making itself look not quite so bad.
>>>> 
>>>> Discussion at the IGF I think made pretty clear that it wasn't the act of surveillance that was a shock, spies spy, but the scale, the absolutely massive (massive) scale, that everyone was a target (or potentially so), that US administration had been clear they didn't care about rights of non-US citizens: this might not have come through as clearly in the sessions as it might, but that human rights were violated was emphasized over and over.
>>>> 
>>>> Couple of sessions at the IGF discussed: the final morning "Main Session: Emerging Issues – Internet Surveillance" <http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/igf-2013-transcripts/1439-taking-stock-emerging-issues--internet-surveillance>. And somewhat on the morning of the first day "Building Bridges – The Role of Governments in Multistakeholder Cooperation" <http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/igf-2013-transcripts/1447-building-bridges-the-role-of-governments-in-multistakeholder-cooperation> (links are to full transcript)
>>>> 
>>>> And there's a chairs summary on the IGF website that attempts to summarize things (clumsy stuff, and I was one of the pair who wrote it, a new version will be added later today).
>>>> 
>>>> Adam
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 2:03 AM, Jorge Amodio wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I guess the summit in Rio will include a discussion about this no ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/5/5068024/brazil-admits-to-spying-on-us-russia-iran-diplomatic-targets-after-nsa-criticism
>>>>> 
>>>>> -J
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>