Thank you very much. There are some very good people on the list. What a shame the process fails to do them justice. "Adiel is someone associated with the emergent AFRINIC" You didn't know you were discussing AFRINIC's Executive Director? Bizarre. (Senior staff of 3 RIRs. Great people, unusual concentration.) And what a shame you couldn't agree on nominating a chap who will be stuck in hospital until the working group's half over ... %-) (or should that be :-o ?) Did you do any research on these people? Bother even to read Robin's not about Marco Cappato? I appreciate that you were undertaking a pretty thankless and hard task. But someone should have put more thought into it. Thanks, Adam At 9:51 AM -0400 9/6/04, Milton Mueller wrote: > >>> [log in to unmask] 9/3/2004 10:08:11 PM >>> > > I agree with these names. I would rather have Kilnam >for AP but if he is not able to work because of an injury, >Paul Wilson is OK with me. > > My apologies for not having participated in the chat session. >Our firewall system crashed that night and I had to do the >system reconfig myself. > > >>>> "Valerie Gordon" <[log in to unmask]> 9/6/2004 6:37:34 AM >>> >Milton I am still on the road(Barbados) but >running home from the hurricane today. The list >looks fine. >Please proceed. > >Valerie > >IM SESSION LOG <some jokes edited> (9/2/2004, 9:30am - 11:00 am EDT) > >Never give out your password or credit card >number in an instant message conversation. > >[log in to unmask] says: >oh that's funny > > Claude has been added to the conversation. > >[log in to unmask] says: >yay >Milton says: >aha, here he is >[log in to unmask] says: >who did that? >Milton says: >I think I did. there is an "invite someone to this conversation" button >Claude says: >Hello! >Claude says: >Suddenly I feel so online. >Milton says: > >Claude says: >I'l have to refresh my firewall, I feel vulnarable. >Claude says: >OK, Are you still there? >Milton says: >well, if it's only us three, we may as well have stuck with iliya.de >Claude says: >Well, may I welcome you to this brand new chatroom cortesy of Microsoft. >[log in to unmask] says: >nope. shall we give em a minute? i can go and >send a quick reminder e-mail. Thank you for >the welcome "against_my_principles" >Milton says: >sure, send them a message >[log in to unmask] says: >Claude says: >Claude? Oh, you mean claude Shannon, I guess? >Milton says: >I discussed the WGIG with John Mathiason >yesterday (a colleague with lots of UN >experience). He says that it would be very >unusual, if not unprecedented, for a >Secretary-General's WG not to support >financially the travel of its members. >Milton says: >claude shannon, the towering mathematical genius, welcome >Claude says: >I love it - MS boosts out my identity and I do >not now how. Anyway, I registered as Claude >Shannon, a enginer >Milton says: >ok, I get it >Claude says: > -- who said that the "digital revolution" would change the world. >Claude says: >He said that 1948. >[log in to unmask] says: >I wonder how much time the wg members will have >to spend travelling, etc. - whether they can >work regular jobs as well >Milton says: >what about logging of this conversation? Adam >wants to look over our shoulders... >[log in to unmask] says: >under view, there's something about conversation >history. we just have to figure out how to use >it. Otherwise, copy and paste. >[log in to unmask] says: >http://help.msn.com/EN_US/frameset.asp?INI=macmsgv40.ini&H_VER=2. >6&H_APP=MSN%20Messenger >Milton says: >Frannie, stop swearing >Claude says: >As I said, I just join, you organise it this time. >[log in to unmask] says: >sorry, can't help it >Milton says: >ok, copy and paste works. you just use "select >all" under edit and then copy and paste to a >text file >[log in to unmask] says: >You can save a specific Messenger conversation >as a Web page that you can view by using a Web >browser. This is a good way to save a specific >conversation for later viewing without keeping >the entire history. >Claude says: >Are we going to start or what? >Milton says: >yes, let's >Milton says: >Let's start with Africa. > Technical: Adiel Akplogan > Policy: Olivier Nana Nzepa, Anriette Esterhuysen, Thierry >Amoussogbo > >Milton says: >Adiel is someone associated with the emergent AFRINIC, i.e., >the address registry for Africa >[log in to unmask] says: >Olivier would be good. What else do you know about Adiel? >Milton says: >how much do you know about Olivier?? >ok, so frannie, you have worked with Olivier >recently? All I know is that he showed up for 2 >ICANN meetings, joined ncuc, is very friendly, >and is associated with thierry's african list >discussion IG issues >Claude says: >I for my part can only say that I feel unqualified to judge. >[log in to unmask] says: >he's also very well connected to the NGO >community there, head of the african wsis >caucus, and chaired the tunisia crazy meeting... >ie "capable of working in an intensly >politicized environment" >Milton says: >that;s great >Milton says: >I did not know about the Tunisia meeting. >[log in to unmask] says: >I think he's responsive and very well involved - I'd like to nominate him >Milton says: >so you prefer him over Anriette and Thierry? >[log in to unmask] says: >there's a video on andy carvin's blog of the almost-brawl >[log in to unmask] says: >I only know Thierry through here so others would >know better than I - I was hoping he'd be on >this "chat" >Milton says: >whatever we decide, we must run the african >selections by Thierry, get some discussion, and >confirmation >[log in to unmask] says: >agreed >Milton says: >what about anriette then? >[log in to unmask] says: >what did you say about adiel - did I miss that? >Milton says: >Adiel I know little about, except that he is >making presentations about AfriNIC. >Milton says: >He therefore seems to have strong technical >qualifications and to be someone like Raul of >LAC, with a foot in CS, business and technical >camps >[log in to unmask] says: >how strong is his foot in CS? >Milton says: >don't know, we would have to rely on theirry for that >[log in to unmask] says: >okay, well. I'd say, that if he's strongly >recommended by Thierry, it would be good to >nominate Adiel and Olivier. If he isn't as >highly recommended, I'd like to go out of the 1 >tech, 1 policy framework and nominate Olivier >and Anriette >[log in to unmask] says: >thoughts? >Claude says: >OK, let'sl see what Thierry has to add. >[log in to unmask] says: >okay. Asia? >Milton says: >yes, I'd wait for Thierry. I think I would >prefer Olivier and Adiel, but would want T. to >confirm it. Nothing against Anriette, of >course, just think it is important to not >overrepresent one org. (APC) >[log in to unmask] says: >assuming we nominate karen for europe >Milton says: >On Asia, I learned that Kilnam Chon, who would >be GREAT for the technical person, had a >climbing accident which nearly destroyed his >pelvis and some other bones, and is recovering, >will not be able to travel until Feb. >[log in to unmask] says: >oh god. that's terrible >Milton says: >I have great confidence in Eung Hwi Chun, IF he >is supported for travel and If he is committed >to do it. >[log in to unmask] says: >chun over aizu? >Milton says: >Eung Hwi is deeply embedded in the Korean ccTLD >and IG community, has ties to the cctld >operator KRNIC but has nevertheless remained >independent and critical of it and the national >govt policies. >[log in to unmask] says: >and pindar wong vs paul wilson >Milton says: >Yes, I would prefer Chun over Izumi for a >variety of complex reasons. Izumi is very >visible and would be a strong player, which is >good, however, he is mainly concerned with >process issues - representation of netizens, >etc. and i think that the WGIG will need to >have more positions on substantive policy >issues, which i think chun is better at >[log in to unmask] says: >okay. good reasoning >Milton says: >by the way, did horacio ever respond to this meeting notice >[log in to unmask] says: >nope >[log in to unmask] says: >don't know what happened to everyone. >Milton says: >OK, we will have to run Asian selections by him >via email. I'm sure he will respond >Milton says: >On Paul Wilson v. Pindar, I think it is an easy >choice. However, I am not completely happy with >either one. Wilson is great as a RIR >representative. you couldn't ask for a more >accessible and intelligent person. problem is >his "CS" status. This has been discussed on our >list and on the caucus list as well >[log in to unmask] says: >oh, why? >Milton says: >btw horacio agreed with me on the list re: >Pindar being more of a business rep than a CS >rep >[log in to unmask] says: >sounds like we're going with Paul >Milton says: >Another alternative is to nominate Chon subject >to health reasons and Wilson as alternate. >[log in to unmask] says: >Claude, you there? >Claude says: >Yes. >[log in to unmask] says: >I don't want to put that kind of responsibility >on someone who's enduring such difficulties in >life. It's more than travel >[log in to unmask] says: >If he'd really like to do it despite his health, >then great, but I can't imagine going through >that and taking on this task >Claude says: >I would put my trust in Chun and agree that >Pindar Wong has close ties to business. >Milton says: >yes, the approach i suggested would make it easy >for him to decline if he wanted to. >[log in to unmask] says: >i understand >Claude says: >We can ask Chon (about whom I do not know enough to judge) >Milton says: >but it may be just a waste of time to try to >play things so finely, so maybe we should just >nominate Wilson, or no one at all >Milton says: >I did ask Chon, he didn't quite say no, he just >said that he wouldn't be able to travel until >Feb. >Claude says: >I'm ... uneasy with discussing someones health on a public list. >Milton says: >Well, Kilnam put a powerpoint file with X-rays >of his pelvis up on the Internet >[log in to unmask] says: >oh well that's good to know. I'd say if he's >miles better than Wilson we should do the first >suggestion, if not, then we should pick Wilson. >No need to make him look like a second choice to >the working group. >[log in to unmask] says: >don't ya think? I think we should present them >as having the desired qualifications... our top >choices >Milton says: >OK, subject to confirmation by Horacio, I'll go >with Wilson. Also, Eung Hwi is closely >associated with Kilnam, and both are from Korea. >[log in to unmask] says: >great. Europe? >Milton says: >tough choices here on the policy side >[log in to unmask] says: >I know. I'd really like to see what Marco Cappato does with this role >[log in to unmask] says: >wish we could nominate Vittorio, Karen and Marco >Claude says: >I have tried to find out more about Marco and >probably will get some responses by MdEPs. >Milton says: >so do i >Milton says: >when would you receive these responses from MdEPs? >Claude says: >Ah, within this week. >Claude says: >It's just that I never heard of him so far. >Claude says: >EP is slowly recovering from last elections. >[log in to unmask] says: >It would be good to have either Karen or >Anriette as a nominee. I know this is treating >them like they're interchangeable, one human >being, but they're both great and work together >so well anyway >Claude says: >Long holidays. >Claude says: >Karen is my favourite, after all that I have heard about her. >[log in to unmask] says: >she rocks >Milton says: >He has his own domain http://www.marcocappato.it/ >Milton says: >What have you heard about Karen? any direct experience? >Claude says: >Yes, I know that marco has a domain, but since >he is European, I wanted some first-hand >impressions. >Milton says: >ok >[log in to unmask] says: >he's great on privacy, on intellectual property, >on governance. Karen has direct experience with >the ICT TF - a long history of experience from >what I understand >[log in to unmask] says: >My colleague here from Belgium is a huge fan of >Cappato - I could ask him to give more info >Claude says: >I have no "direct experience" about Karen >(flights to London are about €20,- at the >moment, but I have no time). >Claude says: >But everyone I asked spoke in the highest tones of her. >Milton says: >We could create a "global/nonregional" category >and put Karen into that. It's appropriate >anyway, she's part of a global NGO and is >Australian nationality, lives in Europe. >Milton says: > hope your ears are ok after all those high tones >Claude says: >Jaja. You know I meant respect. >Claude says: >My son just switched on his children song CD, >which makes it a bit more difficult to think in >English. >[log in to unmask] says: >with a deeper network and more visibility >(having been on the European Parliament) >Cappato might have a big impact, but she's >tough, knowledgeable and so involved and I >really want her to be on there as well. >Milton says: >ha. i have chased my son out of the room, >fortunately, but another invasion may be >imminent >Claude says: >Nice Germanism, anyway. >[log in to unmask] says: >< ) >Milton says: >so, fw, what did you think of my global category idea >[log in to unmask] says: >wish I was listening to a german childrens' CD >Claude says: >The EP has certainly grown. I am not always ... >convinced the EU is on the right track. >[log in to unmask] says: >love the global category idea - love it >Milton says: >would you say it.....um, "rocks"? >Claude says: >Well, we still have this limit of about 10 people. >[log in to unmask] says: >it so rocks >[log in to unmask] says: >where did the limit come from? >Claude says: >It's a self-imposed limit that we deducted from >general political experience and Miltons shoe >size. >Milton says: >so we are dumping Meryem? >[log in to unmask] says: >I wouldn't say dumping, cuz she's great too... >that's why she's on this list. But I'd say the >choice is between the other two in my book >[log in to unmask] says: >Meryem is excellent on human rights, but the >other two are as well and I think have been >more involved in IG >Milton says: >ok, what about vittorio? >Claude says: >I agree to Frannie. >[log in to unmask] says: >I'd like Vittorio to get the tech nomination >Claude says: >Vittorio... hm. He's pretty unique on the >"technical" list. No technicans in Europe? But >the "Politicians" are stronger in my view. >[log in to unmask] says: >Marc never nominated anyone did he >Milton says: >there are pluses and negatives imho. Plus: he is >ALAC, although its claim to represent "the >public" is fairly weak, Vittorio is committed >to the idea anyway; his technical knowledge is >quite good. Negative: he is not a strong force, >fairly junior, may not have the stature needed >[log in to unmask] says: >I agree with all, except I'd say that when he >speaks up he's great - always good suggestions >and speaks diplomatically and with experience. >He's been very involved so his stature is >building... and as you say, there aren't many >other European techicians for the pickins! >Milton says: >there are lots, we just didn't get any nominated >Claude says: >Well, Adam's comment was right that this is more >something for the "policy" part of NCUC. >[log in to unmask] says: >Agreed. Roessler, Keller... that's all I know >So are we choosing Vittorio? >Milton says: >what does Mr. Shannon say, please calculate a result for us >Claude says: >Oh dear. >Claude says: >If we push Karen into the international category... >Claude says: >That would leave Vittorio and Marco. >Milton says: >Yes... >Claude says: >If we place Karen in Europe, I for my part would vote for Karen and Marco. >Milton says: >that's another option >Milton says: >creating a special category for Karen could look a bit suspicious >Claude says: >The technical/political thing is just a suggestion, anyway. >Claude says: >Time warning: I have only a few minutes left. >Milton says: >Karen could "pass" as technical. APC got its start as ISPs, I think >Claude says: >(yn) >Milton says: >Ok, what about North America? Iliya, you put >Drake's name forward - any reason for that >other than that Jeanette told you to? >Claude says: >Well, also I wanted to see how you reacted. >Milton says: >so how did I react? >Claude says: >We call that a "balloon" in German. Let it rise and see who shoots it down. >[log in to unmask] says: >oh no.. we better hurry. I think it would be >fine to create the global category... after all >her work is global... this process is global >Milton says: >but there is no real support for him from you? >[log in to unmask] says: >:-# >[log in to unmask] says: >I say let's go with Karl and Susan >Claude says: >Relatively well. But you, ah, smelled the roast. Another expression. >Milton says: >There is strong support for Karl. And if anyone >has a right to claim an ability to represent CS >on this WGIG, he does. Of course, there is >strong opposition to him as well, which needs to >be recognized. >[log in to unmask] says: >Bill could actually be in the global category >with Karen. Smelled the roast? That's great. >What does it mean? >Claude says: >No, I am fine with having discussed him as a >candidate, he would certainly be good on the >job. >Claude says: >Well, if you smell the roast you know that it is only a trap. > >[log in to unmask] says: >Karl's one of the best on this list from all >regions in my opinion. I really want to >support his participation in the WG. Ah, I >like "smelled the roast" > >Milton says: >For the record, I support Karl but am concerned >about his ability to actively forge political >deals that can get things done, however this is >less of a problem in a WG writing a report than >it was on the Board. >Claude says: >Karl and Susan are a good choice. Like everyone, >I ama bit uncertain about Karl but willing to >trust him. > >Claude says: >However, I think he might be considered to have >too difficult a past by some pople higher up in >the decision chain. >[log in to unmask] says: >thank you. who are we talking about? >Claude says: >It's a pity, because this is probably what some people at ICANN want. >Claude says: >Karl. >Milton says: >Karl would be supported by some higher ups as >well. Susan is a law professor with good >background in ICANN and connections to other >issues. One reason I favor her over Bill is >ideological diversity. I.e., what I know of >Bill's views would be represented well by Karen >Banks but Susan has a different perspective that >favors decentralized decision making >[log in to unmask] says: >Ah. great. I support karl and susan >Claude says: >Well, it's OK with me. >[log in to unmask] says: >would you prefer something else? >No, it's OK. I'm just trying to mask my enthusiasm. >[log in to unmask] says: >8-| don't have a mask, but how about the glasses >Milton says: >Iliya, not claude, ok Adam? >Claude says: >Huh? >[log in to unmask] says: >:-* >[log in to unmask] says: >:-# >Milton says: >oh stop >[log in to unmask] says: >okay, latin america? >[log in to unmask] says: >I'd choose Carlos for policy and I don't know the techies >Claude says: >I'm afraid, but you will have to go there on your own. I have to leave now. >Milton says: >One thing to note is that Erick sent me a >private message withdrawing his name from >policy, for "personal reasons" >Milton says: >He authorized me to forward that message to you. >I will do so if I can find it buried under my >inbox >[log in to unmask] says: >okay. good to know. >Claude says: >Once more, I am unable to decide. >Milton says: >Agree that Carlos is good for policy, can't tell >whether he wants to do it, he showed little >interest in the nomination exercise >Milton says: >Latin America > Technical: Raul Echeberria and Florencio Utreras > Policy: Oscar Robles (LACTLD), Carlos Afonso (RITS), Francisco >Lopez-Bermudez > >[log in to unmask] says: >Iliya, we'll continue the conversation over >e-mail... get Thierry, Horacio and Valerie's >opinions, etc. >[log in to unmask] says: >maybe he showed little interest because he wanted to be nominated?? >Milton says: >Raul is acceptable to me as technical person. He >is responsible, has some ties to CS, >participated actively in NCUC a long time ago. >Milton says: >but we have that RIR problem again. >Claude says: >OK. Talk to you later. Let me see if I find something... What about this: >[log in to unmask] says: >didn't want to suggest himself? >Milton says: >I interpreted it differently. >[log in to unmask] says: >I didn't know how to interpret it >[log in to unmask] says: >what about oscar? >Milton says: >but carlos is a very good choice given that he spans ncuc and wsis-cs >Milton says: >oscar is a cctld person. when he represented >ncdnhc within ICANN he was very silent and did >little, so it is hard to tell what he would do. >Raul would be much better. >[log in to unmask] says: >I think we should pick Carlos and Raul then and see what Horacio has to say >Milton says: >you mean valerie? >Milton says: >but what about this name you put forward, francisco lopez-bermudez >[log in to unmask] says: >yes, Valerie >[log in to unmask] says: >I like him, he's helpful on the human right >issues, but I'd prefer Carlos because of his >involvement on the CS IG caucus and in NCUC >Milton says: >ok, well, Raul and Carlos are pretty good >choices, imho -- IF Carlos is interested. >Problem is, he is so good for these kinds of >things that he gets nominated for all of them. >[log in to unmask] says: >human right - ha - meant Human Rights. What does the "Right" know about that >[log in to unmask] says: >Well, he didn't write and say no, so I think >Carlos and Raul should be our suggestions for >the NCUC >Milton says: >ok,good so now we have to prepare the "winnowed" >list and send it to Horacio, Valerie and >Thierry. > >[log in to unmask] says: >so we've got... >[log in to unmask] says: >Africa: olivier and adiel >[log in to unmask] says: >Asia: paul wilson and chun >[log in to unmask] says: >Europe: vittorio and Marco >[log in to unmask] says: >karen as global >[log in to unmask] says: >LAC: carlos and raul >[log in to unmask] says: >North America: karl and susan >[log in to unmask] says: >look right? >Milton says: >yes, but unconfirmed by the needed plurality of EC. >[log in to unmask] says: >correct... but this is what we're sending to them >[log in to unmask] says: >i know you wrote that just for Adam >Milton says: >naw..... >Milton says: > >[log in to unmask] says: >:-#:-*:-#:-* >Milton says: >:-#:-*:-#:-* that's how your emoticons look >[log in to unmask] says: >Alright. Will you prepare it? And can you save >this conversation history since you weren't >kicked off three times >Milton says: >yes, I will save the log, and send a list via the ecncuc list to the three >[log in to unmask] says: >I see yours as I sent them - do they look funny? >Milton says: >:-#:-*:-#:-* -- does that look funny to you? >[log in to unmask] says: >funny ha ha, not funny odd though. >Milton says: >Although we will use the ecncuc list that goes >to all, would you like to take responsibility >for contacting one ro two of the three if that >doesn't work? >[log in to unmask] says: >meaning, if they don't respond on the list? Sure >Milton says: >yes. ok? are we done? >[log in to unmask] says: >we're done. you need to send me an e-mail but I'll remind you in a bit