I might also note that, when I searched the IRS list of qualified non-profits, Church of Reality (the addressee of the IRS letter on the webpage), Church of the Real, and any other derivative of the name (other than 3 other churches that are unrelated) does not show up as a 501(c)(3) organization or any other kind of tax-exempt organization. Further the employer identification number in the letter pictured on the church webpage does not show up as belonging to any kind of IRS qualified organization. (And as a side note, I understand Lois Lerner wasn't made director of the IRS exempt organizations division until Dec. 22, 2005, and the letter on the webpage, signed "for" her in that capacity is stamped Oct. 20, 2005.) Moreover, I couldn't find the Church of Reality on the lists of California non-profits that I accessed. I didn't have time for further tracing. But are you sure it is a 501(c)(3) or current California nonprofit?
Are IRS qualification and state registered non-profit the criteria or is it non-religious right?
Cheryl B. Preston
Edwin M. Thomas
J. Reuben Clark Law School
"organization".
organization. These factors are not alone determinative: He never
by the laws of any state. There was no board of directors. The
website was registered to a for-profit corporation.
profit charity with a board of directors. It is an established legal
entity that has been awarded federal tax-exempt status.
that it was in fact an organization.
as a group position.
You said:
"Some guy who runs a business and funds
religious right groups threw up a web site on some free blog area,
called it a "foundation" and claimed that it was a noncommercial org.
There was no evidence that anyone but him was involved, there was no
evidence that this organization existed. We told him he could join
as an
individual, though, which he didn't bother to do. Rather obviously an
attempt to stack the deck. That's why we need some kind of review of
membership eligibility."
Please respond:
Does being a CEO of a business preclude an organization of which
one is director from eligibility?
Exactly which "religious right groups" do you believe he "funds"?
How do you define "religious right groups" anyway? Does that
include BYU?
Are "religious left groups" disapproved of as well?
I asked earlier how you distinguished the Church that you admitted
this summer, for whom the Internet is a sacred shrine. I received
no answer. As I asked then, How many members does it have? Is it
involved in any other activities?
If Ralph "funds" varrious "religious right groups," would those all
be disqualified as well? If not, why is a foundation to which he
contributes funds for support of families on the Internet
disqualified?
The director of this foundation could certainly have joined as an
individual, but your response made it clear that your constituency
was not unbiased. Rather than pay the $50 to join NCUC, I suppose
he is waiting for the new structure and a new constituency.
If what you want is evidence of how many or who all is involved in
the foundation, why didn't you say so? He could send you a list.
Or do you want a list of activities the foundation has sponsored?
What makes something "rather obvious" to you is not set forth in
the existing rules. As these questions illustrate, it is unclear,
even from the above statement, what is the criteria after all.
Cheryl B. Preston
Edwin M. Thomas
Professor of Law
J. Reuben Clark Law School
Brigham Young University
424 JRCB
Provo, UT 84602
(801) 422-2312
Cheryl:
Do you presume that all members of the new constituencies must also
join
another organization, the NCSG or something else? The proposal
states:
"Individuals and representatives of organizations join NCSG
directly."
You join the NCSG first, directly, and form a constituency second. You
cannot form a NCSG constituency without being a member of NCSG.
That is
clear I think from the proposal.
Who decides on elibility?
The basic eligibility criteria for organizations are stated in the
NCUC
charter; the criteria for individuals are stated in the application
form
criteria
are applied by the Executive Committee (not by me individually, as you
wrongly supposed). This has been a somewhat slow process even with
only
5 EC members, and Kim Heitman's concerns about scalability as we
add new
constituencies become even more pertinent here. I would suggest
that the
Chair make a decision, communicate it to the EC and if X number of EC
members objects it can go to a vote, or an appeal to the whole
membership, whatever.
Milton has turned down an organization
application to NCUC because the .org domain name was purchased by a
corporation and, thus -- supposedly -- commercial, even though the
Whoa. The Executive Committee turned it down, not me. To be more
precise, this application received NOT ONE vote from among the 6
people
involved. The reason is simple. Some guy who runs a business and funds
religious right groups threw up a web site on some free blog area,
called it a "foundation" and claimed that it was a noncommercial org.
There was no evidence that anyone but him was involved, there was no
evidence that this organization existed. We told him he could join
as an
individual, though, which he didn't bother to do. Rather obviously an
attempt to stack the deck. That's why we need some kind of review of
membership eligibility.
constituency itself, must be totally transparent, with clear stated
rules, and then full discussion/explanation about the basis of the
decision, and finally a method for appeal. The existing criteria is
not
sufficient.
All of these things exist now. In any rational review and appeal
process, that application will fail. It was a fake, pure and simple.
Were you thinking that all membership voting would be NCSG-wide, like
the current NCUC is?
Yes.
If so, then the existing NCUC control group would
still control as NCUC as a constituency would claim more membership
and
more "large" organizations than new constituencies.
NCUC dissolves as a constituency as this plan is implemented. There is
no "control group."
Here is the another way of stating what you seem to be complaining
about: if you want to influence NCSG policy positions and elect
officers, then you will have to be able to persuade more than 5
people.
Yep.
Can you tell me the
criteria for "large" and "small" organizations?
It is in the current NCUC charter.
I assume for a new
constituency to make any difference in the existing stakeholder
representation, it would need to out-vote the NCUC constituency
(whatever the new version is called).
There will be no NCUC constituency once this plan is enacted. But
if you
mean, again, that a new constituency will have to persuade other
constituencies/ NCSG members to win elections, then yes, absolutely.
That is the way it should be. The mere act of forming a constituency
does not guarantee 5 people absolute power over a group of 50-100
people, nor should it.
Thus, the way it reads to me, a constituency whose interest were
Internet safety, for instance, could have 5 very legitimate members,
but
unless all 5 are large organizations by the criteria, they will be
out-voted every time -- in fact even if all 5 are large organizations
they will be outvoted.
They will be outvoted only if they cannot convince other people to go
along with their views.
So, with cumulative voting (if that what you mean), it would take
perhaps 8 new constituencies of 5 members each (with approximately
the
same mix of large and small organizations and individuals as in the
existing NCUC group), to outvote the NCUC group.
Again, there is no "NCUC group" in the new plan. Second, voting occurs
only for NCSG officers and GNSO Council members. Whoever expects to be
elected for those positions had better be supported by most of the
NCSG
people. Third, constituencies, no matter how small, can put people on
Working Groups, which is where the policy "action" is in the new GNSO.
And they can file their position papers along with all the others.
The proposal does say that each constituency does get a
representative
on the EC. Are you presuming that the EC of the NCSG would function
as
has the EC of the current NCUC, where they basically make all the
decisions without input from constituency membership by votes or
review?
The EC will have mostly administrative, not policy making powers.
Whether it is administration or policy, however, it is not feasible to
have every minor decision require a membership vote. We elect
people to
make these decisions, and if we don't like the decisions they make we
throw them out of office next time. No one wants to be involved in
every
single act of the NCSG, and anyone insane enough to attempt it will
discover that no one participates in those votes and that they will
spend all of their time running such votes rather than doing the real
work.
the votes of the EC would be balanced, one for each
constituency. Right?
Right.
In which case, what is the point of the vote
differential for size of organization other than to elect the EC
representative within each constituency?
The vote differential applies when we have NCSG-wide elections for
Chair, and GNSO Council.
Why couldn't each constituency
decide how to allocate the votes within their own constituency, in
terms
of individuals and organizations?
They can do that, when it comes to picking their own representative to
the EC