Hi Nuno,
?????
I'm not sure I understand completely the meaning of your two messages...
Thanks for clarifying if you have time....
Alain
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Nuno Garcia <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I think we had agreed on that not-for-profit is different of
> non-commercial.
>
> I see no reason why NPOC could not support a Chamber of Commerce
> application - this clearly falls within the scope of "non-profit"
> organization. And the same to workers unions, large cooperative
> organizations, foundations, political parties and so on. I recall that some
> private foundations have larger budgets than some countries.
>
> And with this thought I go and try to find more info on NPOC because now I
> am a bit worried...
>
> Best,
>
> Nuno Garcia
>
>
> On 15 November 2011 22:55, Alain Berranger <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Greetings Nicolas,
>>
>> I generally buy the Chambers of Commerce arguments... NPOC is not
>> submitting any Chamber of Commerce membership application... for the USOC
>> case please refer to the stream of emails and we can exchange further, if
>> you wish.
>>
>> Generally I think Avri's criteria of assessing what are the main
>> activities of an organization applying for membership is excellent. So in
>> reference to the London games, NPOC would support an application by the UK
>> Olympic Committee but not by the London olympic games organizing committee
>> (See the distinction in Kelly's email response to Avri).
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Alain
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Nicolas Adam <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>
>>> catching up on a lot of discussion folks. This debate may be more
>>> advance now than I am aware of.
>>>
>>> Alain,
>>>
>>> Don't make this about "being" or "not being" a *non-profit*. It is about
>>> being or not being *non-commercial*. Non-profit and non-commercial are
>>> objectivaly distinctive. one of the distinction we chose to make was about
>>> the commercial status of the org members themselves, which is a very
>>> objective way to discriminate.
>>>
>>> Tell me straight please, would you have wanted to draft rules that would
>>> have enabled Chambers of Commerce to apply for and receive NCSG membership?
>>> This is a trust-building or trust-breaking question as far as i'm concern.
>>> And a fundamental one at that.
>>>
>>> Also, why isn't the org in question interested in joining the CSG?
>>>
>>> Nicolas
>>>
>>>
>>> On 14/11/2011 2:27 PM, Alain Berranger wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Kelly for putting evidence of USOC's not-for-profit status
>>> squarely on the table. It is now hoped that the NCSG-Executive Committee
>>> opponents to USOC's membership will change their minds and rally to the
>>> NPOC-Executive Committee's recommendation. Kudos to Avri for her mature and
>>> transparent attitude!
>>>
>>> I sincerely hope future discussions about pending and new NPOC members
>>> will be based solely on evidence, ie. facts verifiable by an independant
>>> and uninterested third party. Let it be clear, once again, that the NPOC
>>> Constituency will accept only non-commercial members, thus facilitating the
>>> work of the NCSG-Executive Committee on admission to the Stakeholders'
>>> Group.
>>>
>>> Best, Alain
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Kelly Maser <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you to Alain for speaking up to discuss why the U.S. Olympic
>>>> Committee is truly a non-profit entity. The USOC and its predecessor
>>>> organizations have been responsible for overseeing amateur sports in this
>>>> country, not just at the elite level but also encouraging sports, healthy
>>>> lifestyles, competition and fair play at the grassroots levels as well.
>>>> The USOC has many member organizations, some of which are community-based
>>>> organizations such as the YMCA or Boys and Girls Clubs of America, the
>>>> Girl Scouts, etc. But the primary members are the National Governing
>>>> Bodies ("NGBs") for the individual sports (*e.g., *USA Track & Field,
>>>> USA Swimming, U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association, U.S. Figure Skating, U.S.
>>>> Tennis Association). The majority of the USOC's budget goes to support
>>>> athletes, either through direct grants or through funding the NGBs. The
>>>> USOC also provides support to the NGBs (and their athletes) in terms of
>>>> governance support, coaching assistance, sports medicine, sports psychology
>>>> and the like. The USOC also operates three U.S. Olympic Training Centers
>>>> where thousands of athletes train each year. Here are a few statistics for
>>>> you:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For example, from 2002-2010, these fees were used to assist the USOC
>>>> in:
>>>>
>>>> (a) annually hosting approximately 25,000 athletes, coaches,
>>>> officials and program staff for the National Governing Bodies ("NGBs") for
>>>> the individual Olympic sports at its three Olympic training centers
>>>> (located in Chula Vista, California, Colorado Springs, Colorado and Lake
>>>> Placid, New York) and at its U.S. Olympic Education Center in Marquette,
>>>> Michigan, at a cost of $360 million over that
>>>> period;
>>>>
>>>> (b) providing support to and sending elite U.S. athletes and
>>>> teams to national and international competitions, most notably the Olympic
>>>> Games, at a cost of $80 million;
>>>>
>>>> (c) working with local communities and 19 different NGBs on
>>>> behalf of the Community Olympic Development Programs in Atlanta, Georgia;
>>>> Chicago, Illinois; Springfield, Missouri; Moorestown, New Jersey; San
>>>> Antonio, Texas; Verona, Wisconsin; and Park City and Kearns, Utah;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (d) directing over $160 million in grants and services to
>>>> athletes, including monetary stipends, health services and benefits,
>>>> educational grants, and more;
>>>>
>>>> (e) providing additional support to 47 different National
>>>> Governing Bodies in the form of NGB Programs and Services including sport
>>>> performance, coaching assistance, sports medicine, sports science and
>>>> organizational support, at a cost of $235 million; and
>>>>
>>>> (f) funding the USOC's many other statutory functions.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know if there are other questions that I could help
>>>> answer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Kelly**
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>>
>>>> *Kelly Maser **| Associate General Counsel|** **United States Olympic
>>>> Committee** **|** **Office**: 719.866.4115 |** **Cell**: 719.330.0266|
>>>> ** **Fax**: 719.866.4839 | [log in to unmask]** |** **www.teamusa.org
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> *On Behalf Of *Alain Berranger
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:09 PM
>>>> *To:* Avri Doria
>>>> *Cc:* [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
>>>> *Subject:* [npoc-voice] Re: [NCSG-Discuss] Notes from NCSG-EC
>>>> Teleconference on 8 November 2011
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thks Avri,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no appetite for minority appeal that I cannot hope to win under
>>>> current membership mindset, sense of entitlement, grand-fathering, numbers
>>>> and distribution... but NPOC colleagues may decide differently.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think we need in general to follow evidence-based membership criteria
>>>> and follow the same criteria for all. So my 4 arguments remain as far as I
>>>> am concerned and can be verified by evidence (facts) not opinion, hearsay,
>>>> bias, etc...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Different strokes for different folks? For instance, how can we have
>>>> NCUC/NCSG individual members working for a law firm or a telecom company?
>>>> but we do. The NPOC membership is clear: all are not-for-profit and only
>>>> play one side of the street.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To the risk of repeating myself, national olympic committees are
>>>> not-for-profits working year in and year out for athletes and not to be
>>>> confused with the games organizing committees which are for profit (or at
>>>> least not for loss) once in a blue moon when the country is awarded the
>>>> games...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For instance re London 2012: one needs to distingush between the games
>>>> organizers - http://www.london2012.*com*/ <http://www.london2012.com/> which
>>>> is for profit and get sponsors to support the 2012 games and the UK Olympic
>>>> committee which every year supports UK athletes and get sponsors to support
>>>> athletes- http://www.olympics.*org*.uk/ <http://www.olympics.org.uk/>
>>>>
>>>> Alain
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Avri Doria <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Assuming there are 14 members who agree with your position, the charter
>>>> has provision for an appeal process that includes the possibility of taking
>>>> it to a full membership vote if the difference of opinion cannot be
>>>> resolved.
>>>>
>>>> > 1. Any decision of the NCSG-EC can be appealed by requesting a full
>>>> vote of the NCSG membership. There are several ways in which an appeal can
>>>> be initiated:
>>>> >
>>>> > · If 15 NCSG members, consisting of both organizational and
>>>> individual members, request such an appeal the NCSG Executive Committee
>>>> will first take the appeal under consideration.
>>>> >
>>>> > · If, after consideration of any documentation provided by those
>>>> making the appeal, the NCSG-EC does not reverse its decision, the NCSG-EC
>>>> and those making the appeal should attempt to negotiate a mutually
>>>> agreeable solution.
>>>> >
>>>> > · If the NCSG-EC and those making the appeal cannot reach a
>>>> mutually acceptable agreement on the decision within 30 days, then an NCSG
>>>> vote will be scheduled as soon as practicable.
>>>> >
>>>> > · For this type of appeal to succeed 60% of all of the NCSG
>>>> members must approve of the appeal in a full membership vote as defined in
>>>> section 4.0.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some comments below.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12 Nov 2011, at 15:16, Alain Berranger wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Dear Colleagues,
>>>> >
>>>> > I want to state I disagree with the decision to exclude the USOC. For
>>>> 4 reasons:
>>>> >
>>>> > 1) Its vision: to enable America's athletes to realize their Olympic
>>>> and Paralympic dreams.
>>>>
>>>> That is its vision, but it is debatable that is main purpose is to
>>>> administer commercial licensing agreement. Or at least this seems to be
>>>> the resumption of those who voted against their membership.
>>>>
>>>> The charter indicates:
>>>> "3. Is engaged in online activities that are primarily noncommercial,
>>>> including, e.g., advocacy, educational, religious, human rights,
>>>> charitable, scientific and artistic, and"
>>>>
>>>> So the question is, what are its primary activities, granting licenses
>>>> or supporting athletes. I have certainly heard arguments on both sides of
>>>> this issue, and personally think it is a toss up. For example, it is well
>>>> known that most olympians have to find their own funding in the US. This
>>>> varies by country, but in the US, the US Olympic Committee does not support
>>>> athletes as far as I have been able to discover. So what do they do beyond
>>>> sanction events and licensing?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > 2) its mission: To support U.S. Olympic and Paralympic athletes in
>>>> achieving sustained competitive excellence and preserve the Olympic ideals,
>>>> and thereby inspire all Americans.
>>>> >
>>>> > 3) It is a not-for-profit with IRS exemption under 501 c 3
>>>>
>>>> As the charter indicates, being not-for-profit is not sufficient. For
>>>> example the Chamber of Commerce in not-for-profit and yet obviously not a
>>>> non-commercial entity. Specifically:
>>>>
>>>> "4. In the case of a membership-based organization, the organization
>>>> should not only be noncommercial itself, but should have a primarily
>>>> noncommercial focus, and the membership should also be primarily composed
>>>> of noncommercial members. (E.g., a chamber of commerce, though it may be a
>>>> noncommercial organization itself, and might even have some noncommercial
>>>> members, is primarily composed of commercial organizations and has a
>>>> commercial focus and would not be eligible for membership.)"
>>>>
>>>> So the question becomes, who are the principles members? I do not know
>>>> the answer to this.
>>>>
>>>> avri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > 4) fundraising is an activity of all not-for-profits, including
>>>> sponsoring, and thus does not make a not-for-profit a commercial
>>>> organization. I think you are confusing the USOC per se with the various
>>>> olympic games hosting organizations set up for Lake Placid, Los Angeles
>>>> games, etc...
>>>> >
>>>> > Alain
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Robin Gross <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > The new NCSG Executive Committee held its first tele-conference on
>>>> Tuesday and we made great progress, particularly with respect to
>>>> establishing a process for handling NCSG membership applications and
>>>> dealing with the NPOC applications that had come in since the election. So
>>>> below are my notes from the EC meeting's discussion.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> > Robin
>>>> >
>>>> > NCSG-EC Teleconference - 8 Nov. 2011
>>>> > Transcript & mp3 recording:
>>>> https://community.icann.org/display/gnsononcomstake/Meetings
>>>> > Attendance: Michael Carson, Rafik Dammak, Robin Gross, Milton
>>>> Mueller, Klaus Stoll
>>>> > NCSG-EC Mtg Discussion Agenda:
>>>> >
>>>> > - Review of NCSG membership application procedures
>>>> >
>>>> > - Review of pending NCSG membership applications
>>>> >
>>>> > - Establishment of NCSG Financial Committee
>>>> >
>>>> > --------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > MEETING NOTES:
>>>> >
>>>> > These 8 orgs were approved for NCSG membership:
>>>> > ALSAC / St. Jude
>>>> > Australian RedCross Society
>>>> > Church of God in Christ
>>>> > Goodwill Industries
>>>> > International Baccalaureate Organization
>>>> > The Association of NGOs, The Gambia (TANGO)
>>>> > Water Environment Research Foundation
>>>> > YMCA of The Gambia
>>>> >
>>>> > These 3 orgs were determined ineligible for NCSG membership:
>>>> > 1. Kaswesha Community Resource Center
>>>> > Reason provided for non-approval: Not the exclusive user of at least
>>>> one domain name (a requirement for eligibility under NCSG Charter Section
>>>> 2.2.1).
>>>> > They were invited to re-apply when they have a noncommercial domain
>>>> name.
>>>> >
>>>> > 2. Civil Society Movement Against Tuberculosis in Sierre Leone
>>>> (CISMAT-SL)
>>>> > Reason provided for non-approval: Not the exclusive user of at least
>>>> one domain name (a requirement for eligibility under NCSG Charter Section
>>>> 2.2.1).
>>>> > They were invited to re-apply when they have a noncommercial domain
>>>> name.
>>>> >
>>>> > 3. US Olympic Committee:
>>>> > Reason provided for non-approval: USOC is substantially a major
>>>> sports licensing business and NCSG is devoted to the protection of
>>>> noncommercial interests.
>>>> > They were invited to join ICANN's Intellectual Property Constituency
>>>> as the more appropriate place to protect their interests.
>>>> >
>>>> > These 7 orgs are undergoing further evaluation:
>>>> > Child Protection Alliance
>>>> > Information Technology Association of the Gambia
>>>> > National Coalition for the Homeless
>>>> > National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry
>>>> > Pilots N Paws
>>>> > Tranquil Space Foundation
>>>> > Young Life
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ** Attached to this email is a flow chart to explain the agreed
>>>> process for handling NCSG Membership Applications going forward.
>>>> >
>>>> > A few notes on the procedures for handling NCSG Membership
>>>> Applications:
>>>> >
>>>> > Completed NCSG Membership applications should be submitted by the
>>>> Applicant to the email address [log in to unmask] for
>>>> consideration by the entire NCSG Executive Committee.
>>>> >
>>>> > NCSG-NCUC Membership application forms are available on the NCSG wiki
>>>> (for individuals and for organizations).
>>>> >
>>>> > Members of the NCSG-EC have 2 weeks to conduct the required due
>>>> diligence on the applications (more flexible if a holiday).
>>>> >
>>>> > Decisions to approve membership applications require the full
>>>> consensus of the voting members of the NCSG Executive Committee (NCSG
>>>> Charter 2.4.2).
>>>> >
>>>> > Verification of a named official representative's authority to
>>>> represent an organizational applicant should be independently verified by
>>>> the EC (NSCG Charter 2.2.4.1).
>>>> >
>>>> > Aggregate voting / representation is not permitted for organizations.
>>>> Each organization must be represented by a different person. No single
>>>> person (or group of persons, i.e., a law firm) can represent two or more
>>>> organizations in NCSG at the same time. This policy discourages attempts
>>>> to game the system through aggregating membership votes.
>>>> >
>>>> > Organizations with a nonprofit legal structure are nonetheless
>>>> ineligible for membership in NCSG if they are substantially a commercial or
>>>> business activity and their interests are more appropriately represented in
>>>> one of the commercial stakeholder groups (NCSG Charter 2.2.2).
>>>> >
>>>> > An organization's official representative to NCSG cannot be a GNSO
>>>> Council Representative for the Intellectual Property Constituency (or other
>>>> officer or member of the IPC or CSG). Outside trademark lawyers are
>>>> discouraged as the official representative for an org to NCSG since NCSG is
>>>> devoted to protecting noncommercial interests.
>>>> >
>>>> > ON A SEPARATE ISSUE:
>>>> > The EC is in the process of establishing a NCSG Financial Committee
>>>> (as per NCSG Charter 2.1. & 2.6.) and is looking for volunteers from among
>>>> the NCSG membership - people with fundraising expertise and time to devote
>>>> to NCSG fundraising activities and ICANN resource allocations. So please
>>>> let an EC member know if you'd like to be considered for membership on the
>>>> NCSG Financial Committee. Thank you!
>>>> > --------------------
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > IP JUSTICE
>>>> > Robin Gross, Executive Director
>>>> > 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA
>>>> > p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451
>>>> > w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: [log in to unmask]
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
>>>> > Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca
>>>> > Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business,
>>>> www.schulich.yorku.ca
>>>> > NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
>>>> > interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
>>>> > O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
>>>> > Skype: alain.berranger
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
>>>>
>>>> Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca<http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/>
>>>>
>>>> Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business,
>>>> www.schulich.yorku.ca
>>>>
>>>> NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
>>>> interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
>>>> O:+1 514 484 7824 <%2B1%20514%20484%207824>; M:+1 514 704 7824<%2B1%20514%20704%207824>
>>>> Skype: alain.berranger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
>>> Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca<http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/>
>>> Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business,
>>> www.schulich.yorku.ca
>>> NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
>>> interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
>>> O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
>>> Skype: alain.berranger
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
>> Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca<http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/>
>> Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business,
>> www.schulich.yorku.ca
>> NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
>> interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
>> O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
>> Skype: alain.berranger
>>
>>
>
--
Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
Member, Board of Directors, CECI,
http://www.ceci.ca<http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/>
Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca
NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
Skype: alain.berranger