Perhaps a note about how APEC deals with this might be helpful? Dangerous turf.... cheers stephanie On 2016-04-13 8:00, Edward Morris wrote: > Hi Ayden. > Thank you very much for your hard work on this. > Is there some place in the document we can either clarify, define, add > to or modify the word 'state'.? > Quick example: Taiwan is represented in the GAC. I and 22 countries of > the world, including Panama, for example, consider Taiwan to be a > state. Yet, the United Nations does not. If we create further regions > based upon culture and Asia is divided into multiple groups it is > conceivable that Taiwan would automatically be lumped i with Chins > where the criteria used in assignment would not normally generate that > outcome. There are other examples of this, in the Middle East being > another. > Thanks for considering how and where this could fit ion to our comment. > Kind Regards, > Ed Mporris > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From*: "Ayden Férdeline" <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent*: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 6:18 PM > *To*: [log in to unmask] > *Subject*: Re: AW: [NCSG-Discuss] Geographic Regions Review Working > Group Report - NCSG Response > Hello all, > Just a reminder that the deadline to submit our comments on the final > report of the Geographic Regions Review Working Group is fast > approaching. If we agree to submit something (and I will confess I am > not too sure of process here - do we want to submit something? Is this > something best discussed on Thursday's open policy call?) it would be > helpful to have your feedback in by next Tuesday. This is because the > deadline for comments is 24 April. > I was reading the statement that was submitted by the Registries > Stakeholder Group > <https://links7.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/HNd3LAYRAqsA2njoA?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI> > yesterday. They began with an interesting remark which I would like to > quote in full - I don't think there is value in us echoing it, but it > might be something we'd like to note in our response to the Draft > Framework of Principles for Cross Community Working Groups, if we respond: > /“The RySG notes that it has been nearly nine years since the concerns > about the definition and use of Geographic Regions were highlighted by > the ccNSO in 2007 and almost three years since the WGGR produced its > final report in June 2013. The reason for these exceptionally long > timelines is unclear but they might be cause of concern for some RySG > members.” / > Just for ease of reference, here is a link to the statement I have > drafted so far which incorporates the inputs of around 20 NCSG > members. I am not precious about the words. If you would like to > change something, please go ahead and re-phrase it: > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit?usp=sharing > I look forward to hearing your thoughts. > Best wishes, > Ayden Férdeline > Statement of Interest > <https://links2.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/lqkayIE4XigvCIbYy?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI> > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 10:48 PM, Ayden Férdeline [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Glenn, and others, > > Thanks for your comments. Regarding the Fellowship, as you know, > ICANN takes a rather economically deterministic view in assessing > eligibility. In order to be eligible for a Fellowship, a candidate > must be a citizen of a country classed by the World Bank as a low, > lower-middle, or upper-middle economy. I don't happen to see > anything wrong with means testing this programme. Nor do I see > anything wrong with deferring to a recognised third-party to make > the call as to whether someone can afford or not to participate > (it's hardly within ICANN's remit to be doing this). But still, > the eligibility criteria is broken. > > The biggest issue I see is this: just because a country is > supposedly high-income does not mean the Fellow comes from such a > background. It does not mean that a country invests in education, > nor is looking to build the capacity of its citizenry in Internet > governance matters. I can only speak from personal experience here > — living in the UK, higher education is very much another > commodity to be exported, not something that the State sees a > responsibility to invest in. The other flaw is in the data set. > We're relying on data self-reported by States to the World Bank. > Some countries do not report accurate data and it is unclear what > repercussions (if any) there are for doing so. The figures that > Argentina, for instance, reports are questionable in accuracy. > This is a country that goes to the trouble of rigging the > Economist's Big Mac Index > <https://links2.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/R7HrwMGbPdKsgJC5z?rn=iUmbpxWZkJXqDbEIuVGZ5FkI&re=i02bj5SZulGblRmclZGQu5WYjlmI> > (by imposing price controls on Big Macs); I would put forward that > the figures they are reporting to the World Bank are intended for > domestic consumption and not grounded in reality. The very real > impact here, however, is that Argentines are not eligible for > ICANN Fellowships, because Argentina has self-reported itself to > the World Bank as a high-income economy. > My preference would be for the Fellowship programme to be extended > to those of all nationalities. Of course there should be some way > to recognise and account for privilege, but particularly for early > career participants and those without institutional backing, it > doesn't matter which country you come from — funding to > participate in ICANN activities is going to be an issue. > To your other comments, Glenn, I am glad that Ed has taken > ownership of this matter and will seek a response from the > relevant parties. > Best wishes, > Ayden > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 6:39 PM, Glenn McKnight > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > We have been bringing up 'forever' the issue of First Nations > from North America and elsewhere which are denied access to > the fellowship. Also the 15 islands under NARALO for the > South Pacific. These members are deemed part of the rich west > and not eligible. Meanwhile American Samoa or the Hopi > Reservations make less many of the countries ie. Barbados and > others who are deemed worthy to be fellows. I am speaking > with Loris Taylor of Native Public Media and she is working > with the Tribal elders in the US to join GAC since US tribes > which are treaty countries are eligible. No one from ICANN > has responded to them. > > Glenn > Glenn McKnight > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > skype gmcknight > twitter gmcknight > . > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Kathy Kleiman > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Hi Tracy, Ayden and All, > I came from the South School of Internet Governance last > week (organized by Olga Cavalli) and learned that a lot of > time is being spent arguing about and within regions. And > there is much work and so many other issues to argue about! > > To Ayden's questions below, which did not make it to me > earlier, let me respond: I think that it is people who > should organize their regions within ICANN. Israel, for > example, might object to being in the Middle Eastern > region; as their citizens are so often denied entrance to > conferences in nearby countries, they normally go to > Europe and other areas for their meetings. Why should > their young people have no chance at getting a NextGen > scholarship if it is only regional and they can't attend > anything in their regions? That's just one example. > > The ones Tracy points to below is another example - and > solution. > > I dislike "recreating the wheel" and my guess is that > others have solved this issue many times and in many ways > over the years. What has worked? > Ayden, as a traveler of the world, I certainly vote for > you to help solve this interesting problem! > Best, > Kathy > > On 4/6/2016 2:56 PM, Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google wrote: >> >> For these reasons and more, the GAC deliberately avoids >> recognition of "regions" in the ICANN space. >> >> In terms of the Americas - geography certainly does not >> rule even re: the RIRs and the Caribbean is probably the >> best/worst example: >> >> Consider this (via the NRO) >> >> *_The ARIN Caribbean_* >> >> US VIRGIN ISLANDS >> BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS >> ANGUILLA >> ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA >> BAHAMAS >> BARBADOS >> BERMUDA >> CAYMAN ISLANDS >> DOMINICA >> GRENADA >> GUADELOUPE >> JAMAICA >> MARTINIQUE >> PUERTO RICO >> SAINT KITTS AND NEVIS >> SAINT LUCIA >> SAINT VINCENT AND THE GRENADINES >> TURKS AND CAICOS ISLANDS >> >> _*The LACNIC Caribbean*_ >> >> ARUBA >> CUBA >> DOMINICAN REPUBLIC >> FRENCH GUIANA >> GUYANA >> HAITI >> NETHERLANDS ANTILLES >> SURINAME >> TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO >> >> *_The RIPE NCC Caribbean_* >> >> MONTSERRAT >> >> SAINT MARTIN? >> >> *_Unclear_* >> >> Caribbean Netherlands - Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, and Saba >> - LACNIC ? >> >> Curacao - LACNIC? >> >> Sint Maarten - LACNIC? >> >> Saint Martin - RIPE NCC? >> >> *_Other idiosyncrasies (defying geography):_* >> >> Malawi - ARIN >> Antarctica - ARIN >> >> (I could be missing one or two island territories/States) >> >> Hi Kathy, >> >> Thanks for your comments. I just wanted to pick up on >> something; you mentioned that (similar, presumably) legal >> structures should be one of our guiding instruments in >> the new geographic regions framework. What were you >> thinking of here? That in the GAC, ICANN should be >> measuring how many members have common and civil law >> along with, say, Sharia law provisions, in relation to >> the total number of countries in the world with those >> legal systems? How valuable would that be? >> I am not a lawyer so my understanding of this topic is >> very limited: I thought every country's legal system had >> its own identity - though some have been inherited from >> or influenced by colonialism, or another factor - so I'm >> not certain as to what we would be trying to achieve >> here. What type of diversity would you like to see in >> terms of legal structures? >> Many thanks, >> >> Ayden >> On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 4:07 PM, Kathy Kleiman >> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> All, I am not sure that the technical regions need to >> be our guiding point here. As Wolfgang points out, >> the technical regions are a little skewed. I would >> like language, culture, legal structure, civil >> society structures, and business structures should be >> our guide here. Quick note that Mexico was “deemed” >> part of the Latin American region at the founding of >> ICANN for these reasons. Tx for the work and >> discussion! Best, Kathy On 3/31/2016 7:25 AM, >> “Kleinwächter, Wolfgang” wrote: > All this can be >> understood only in the historical context: Look at >> the service region for today´s RIPE >> NCC(https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/list-of-members/europe) >> which - as the “European” RIR - inlcudes Middle East >> and Central Asien countries. When AFRINIC was formed >> in the early 2000s they took mainly sub-saharian >> countries which were served previously by ARIN and >> RIPE and left some middle east countries with RIPE. >> Difficult to explain . But the good news is: It >> works.... > > wolfgang > > -----Ursprüngliche >> Nachricht----- > Von: NCSG-Discuss im Auftrag von >> Shane Kerr > Gesendet: Do 31.03.2016 13:06 > An: >> [log in to unmask] >> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Betreff: Re: >> [NCSG-Discuss] Geographic Regions Review Working >> Group Report - NCSG Response > > Seun, > > While ARIN >> predates ICANN, when ICANN was formed ARIN was still >> the RIR > for North America, South America, and >> sub-Saharan Africa. Certainly in > the case of >> Jamaica, since the official language is English it >> made a > certain amount of sense for them to have >> stayed with ARIN as an RIR. > > The Caribbean islands >> all have unique backgrounds, and I suspect trying > >> to group them to get any kind of regional consensus >> is always going to > be problematic. :) > > Cheers, > >> > -- > Shane > > At 2016-03-29 21:55:41 +0100 > Seun >> Ojedeji wrote: > >> That particularly amazed me >> Tracy. There is an ARIN meeting that will be >> >> holding in Jamaica sometime in April. It was quite >> interesting for me to >> learn that based on ICANN >> categorisation, .jm fall under the LAC zone even >> >> though it's within the ARIN region (RIR wise). Don't >> know how much this >> impacts on the work of the NCSG >> but I believe it does for the At-Large >> community. >> >> >> Considering that ARIN predates ICANN, one would >> expect there is already >> existing data set to work >> with. Nevertheless, I guess there may have been >> >> some other reason that informed their decision which >> ofcourse is currently >> be out of my reach/grasps >> >> >> Regards >> >> Sent from my LG G4 >> Kindly excuse >> brevity and typos >> On 29 Mar 2016 9:08 p.m., “Tracy >> F. Hackshaw” >> wrote: >> >>> See ARIN - LACNIC split >> in the Caribbean region. >>> >>> Sent from my Fire >> >>> >>> >>> On March 29, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Ayden >> Férdeline >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Karel, >>> >>> >> While that concern was raised, my understanding is >> that it was not carried >>> forward into the >> recommendations. The Working Group did not recommend >> >>> moving most of the Caribbean region from the >> ICANN silo of Latin America to >>> North America >> because it feared the two regions would be split on >> >>> geographical and linguistic lines (I would >> suggest they already are.), >>> among other reasons >> of “practicality”. It does, however, have provisions >> in >>> place to allow a country's government to >> voluntarily request to move to >>> another region. >> The procedures around how this would happen have not >> yet >>> been developed by Staff. >>> >>> I welcome >> any comments or suggestions you might have for our >> statement, >>> and I look forward to reading your >> additions. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Ayden >>> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 7:59 PM, Karel Douglas >> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Good work - I read the NCUC >> report which caused me to immediately >>>> read the >> final report of the WG. >>>> >>>> I'm glad that the >> issue of the Caribbean region was discussed as it is >> a >>>> very topical issue. >>>> >>>> Carlton Samuels >> was on the WG and would have highlighted the concerns >> >>>> that we have. >>>> >>>> I will certainly try to >> add a few comments on your document. >>>> >>>> >> regards >>>> >>>> Karel >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 29, >> 2016 at 1:26 PM, Ayden Férdeline >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>>> Hello, team- >>>>> >>>>> I have drafted a >> response to the final report of the Geographic >> Regions >>>>> Review Working Group. Comments are due >> in about 25 days time but if we do >>>>> decide to >> reply, I hope we can submit something in advance of >> that >>>>> deadline. I've shared my first draft on >> Google Docs here >>>>> >>>>> and have also attached >> it to this email for those without access to that >> >>>>> website. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can read the Working Group's >> final report here: >>>>> >> https://www.icann.org/public-comments/geo-regions-2015-12-23-en >> >>>>> >>>>> I suspect that we will have a wide birth >> of opinions on this topic, so >>>>> please know that >> I'm very much open to reviewing or rethinking >> anything >>>>> that appears in this early draft. I am >> also new to writing public comments >>>>> like this >> one so welcome any feedback you would be kind enough >> to share. I >>>>> look forward to hearing your >> thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Ayden >> Férdeline >>>>> >>>>> [image: File] >>>>> >>>>> Ayden >> Ferdeline - Response - WGGR Report.pdf 36KB >>>>> >> Download >>>>> >>>>> [image: >>>>> Logo] >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>> >>> Ayden Férdeline >>> Statement of Interest >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ayden Férdeline >>> Statement of >> Interest >>> >>> >> >> Ayden Férdeline >> Statement of Interest >> <https://links6.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/NFYlE7DXtQCyuTshl?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI> >> > Ayden Férdeline > Statement of Interest > <https://links10.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/RTRLQY6cekZHrPc4d?rn=iUmbpxWZkJXqDbEIuVGZ5FkI&re=i02bj5SZulGblRmclZGQu5WYjlmI> > > Ayden Férdeline > Statement of Interest > <https://links7.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/iCqYkhyENkmiusddu?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI>