For those who might be interested in today's 1.5 hour call on the GNSO
review. It was lively. From the NCUC perspective, I think it is fair
to say that we did not think the Westlake representative was taking our
concerns as seriously as they should have, but we have managed to get
more time to review the report again before it goes out for public
comments.
Stephanie Perrin
-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [gnso-review-dt] MP3 recording GNSO Review Working Party
teleconference Tuesday, 03 March 2015 20:00UTC
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 23:51:57 +0000
From: Terri Agnew <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Dear All,
Please find the MP3 recording of the GNSO Review Working Party
teleconference held on GNSO Review Working Party teleconference Tuesday,
03 March 200UTC at
http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-review-03mar15-en.mp3
On page:
http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#mar
The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO
Master Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/
_Attendees:_
Jennifer Wolfe
Ron Andruff
David Maher
Edward Morris
Jennifer Standiford
Klaus Stoll
Amr Elsadr
Robin Gross
Rafik Dammak
James Gannon
Philip Sheppard
Bill Drake
Stephanie Perrin
Mike Rodenbaugh
Rudi Vansnick
Tapani Tarvainen
Sam Lanfranco
Matthieu Camus
Walid Al-Saqaf
Ken Stubbs
Laura Covington
<https://community.icann.org/display/gnsocwgdtstwrdshp/Laura+Covington+SOI>
_Guest speaker_: Richard Westlake
_Apologies:_
Chuck Gomes
Osvaldo Novoa
_ICANN Staff:_
Mary Wong
Marika Konings
Larisa Gurnick
Charla Shambley
Lars Hoffman
Glen de St Gery
Terri Agnew
** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Terri Agnew
*_Adobe Chat transcript:_*
Terri Agnew:Dear all, Welcome to the GNSO Review Working Party on the
03 March 2015
Philip:Hello
Jennifer Wolfe:Hello, Philip, and hello everyone, thanks for joining!
Amr Elsadr - Observer:Hi all. Just to note that the NCSG members
listed as members of the WP on the right-hand column of the screen is
outdated.
Rudi Vansnick:sorry for being late
Terri Agnew:Welcome Rudi
Mary Wong:@Amr, thanks for the note
Amr Elsadr - Observer:@Mary: I'm not a member anymore. Stephanie and
Bill now are.
Mary Wong:Can we confirm which groups (if any) the observers on this
call are? We note several participants who are not current Working Party
members representing the GNSO SG/Cs.
James Gannon (Silent Observer):James Gannon NCUC/NCSG
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:Done. Sorry.
Mary Wong:Thanks!
Mary Wong:They have been sent to the list
Terri Agnew:Welcome Ron Andruff
Ron A:Apologies for my late arrival! Greetings all,
Terri Agnew:Welcome Tapani Tarvainen
Tapani Tarvainen:Thanks, and also aorry for being late. (NCUC/NCSG)
Marika Konings:For those that would like to update their information
(to include affiliation, or observer status), please note you can do so
by going to the drop down menu in the attendee pod and select 'edit my
info'.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Unfortunately the faulty methodology used
in the study makes much of the study not very useful.
Terri Agnew:Welcome Sam Lanfranco
Klaus Stoll:I do not seem to have received the comments from NCUC
Terri Agnew:@Philip, your mic is not active
Mary Wong:@Klaus, that may be an issue of server response/speed, so
different WP members may receive messages at different times. It was
sent to the mailing list by Glen.
Klaus Stoll:Thanks Mary
Terri Agnew:Welcome Matthieu Camus
Matthieu Camus:Thank you... sorry to be late
Larisa Gurnick:Stephanie Perrin, Phillip Sheppard and NCUC comments
have been recieved in response to the working text so far.
Matthieu Camus:Matthieu Camus, Internet Society France
Larisa Gurnick:Please send your comments to [log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Terri Agnew:Welcome Walid Al-Saqaf
Richard Westlake:I'm sorry I can't reallly hear SP
Richard Westlake:Bettee!
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:As an active participant for more than 11
years, I would have liked to have been interviewed by Westlake (I did
fill out the survey).
Marika Konings:@Stephanie - from my experience, we have actually come
a long way since 5-6 years ago where indeed many WGs had many of the
same people involved. We've seen quite a few new people step up,
including yourself, which I personally think is a really positive
development.
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:I still need to get around to joining one. :)
Terri Agnew:Welcome Ken Stubbs
Marika Konings:@Amr - last time I checked you were on quite a few ;-)
Bill Drake:I should add I talked to people who started and gave up
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG::)
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:who decided who got interviewed?
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:where can we see the terms of reference?
Larisa Gurnick:Please see
https://community.icann.org/display/GR2/Community+Engagement+Meetings
for a listing of extensive outreach and engagement activities
Bill Drake:I and a number of other chairs were only interviewed after
I complained about it on the SOAC chairs list
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:I'd really like to know who decided who
was interviewed? We need an answer to that question.
Mary Wong:@Robin, the wiki page has the RFP:
https://community.icann.org/x/aJLhAg
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):We tried o get a good
respomse, we failed, it is what it is, is not an acceptable response.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:where to begin with all the inaccuracies?
Larisa Gurnick:@Robin - the working party provided guidance to
Westlake throughout the process re: interview candidates
Stephanie Perrin:It is extremely difficult to stream through the
document quickly when juggling the scree, the chat, and our own comments.
Mary Wong:To follow up on Larisa's point, staff provided Westlake at
their request with lists of officers, past chairs, WG veterans etc.
Larisa Gurnick:@Stephanie - I emailed a copy of the working text
several minutes ago
Mary Wong:Staff did not select or screen the interviewees, just to be
clear.
Bill Drake:thanks Mary. But chairs turned out not to be worthy
Ron A:Sorry I dropped right after I finished my intervention.
Dialing back in...
Marika Konings:@Bill - I believe all chairs were invited early on,
but not everyone caught the email ;-)
Bill Drake:Marika, most chairs said they were not
Bill Drake:we had a discussion of it on the SOAC list
Klaus Stoll:How do we avoid that perceived inaccuracies are in
themself inaccurate
Bill Drake:actually I was told the staff discouraged interviews
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:How did Westlake decide who to approach
for interview?
Bill Drake:Klaus, checking facts works
Mary Wong:To clarify, by "chairs" the list included GNSO and WG
chairs and vice-chairs as well as SG/C/SO/AC.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Even if the invitations
were such that's snowballing methodology and just is not acceptable for
drawing larger inferences in a bounded community like the GNSO.
Klaus Stoll:Bill, how about some facts not just "I was told"
Bill Drake:I totally oppose the use of "I was told" in such a report
Bill Drake:particularly when highly selective
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:completely agree, Bill.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:The decision to negative stereotype NCUC
is not appropriate.
Marika Konings:@Mike - the Policy & Implementation WG is not
reviewing the PDP, but has recommended a number of processes that may
complement the existing PDP
Mike Rodenbaugh:thx Marika, still there should be some mention in
this doc?
Marika Konings:I believe there are references to that effort in the text
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:how were the interviews divided - equally
among all constituencies? I wasn't interviewed.
Marika Konings:for example page 30
Mike Rodenbaugh:thx. Marika. Re interviews. only one IPC member was
interviewed. Seems like at least 10 from NCUC were interviewed..
Mike Rodenbaugh:So we share Robin's question
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:sounds like questionable methodology,
Mike, for making any recommendations.
Bill Drake:I asked F2F in LA to be interviewed and was told no time
Bill Drake:only after complaining on the SOAC chair list did I
eventually get one
Bill Drake:but this is a side issue
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:the other issue is the choice to
selectively handle comments about NCUC.
Terri Agnew:Laura Covington has joined audio
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:I'm (again) volunteering to be
interviewed for this process. As a participant for more than 11 years,
I can add something (ex-ncsg chair, ex-gnso-councilor, ex-ncuc chair).
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):I'll volunteer to give
Westlake questions on statistical sampling. Apparently Richard
missedcthat class at Oxford.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):classes
Larisa Gurnick:@Richard - please provide a list of people
intervied. This will be included in the report - I understand.
Mike Rodenbaugh:the list is already there in the Annexes
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:These questions could all be avoided if a
description of how informant selection could be included in the
methodology description.
Stephanie Perrin:THe list is there, who are they? What stakeholder
groups?
Mike Rodenbaugh:I agree that would be helpful
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Debra Hughes was interviewed? She hasn't
been in NCSG for several years. Where did her name come from to be
interviewed?
Philip:Quotes reflect concerns and praise. They are the essence of
good consultancy
Marika Konings:@Stephanie - I believe that is information that still
needs completing (note the column 'role' which I presume will identify
their affiliation)
Larisa Gurnick:@Richard - can you please clarify what information you
plan to include in the "Role" column?
Stephanie Perrin:And when did they arrive at ICANN? This is
important, if you are looking at attracting newcomers, and you are not
actually talking to any
Marika Konings:@Robin - she was one of the founders of NPOC which is
one of the GNSO constituencies
Philip:Section 8i about constituencies. They only exist in the CSG
and NCSG
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:She left NCSG years ago. Where was the
suggestion from to interview her (staff?)
Marika Konings:@Robin - I believe there are other names that are no
longer actively involved, but may provided some historic perspectives
that were of interest to Westlake?
Mary Wong:And to clarify/repeat - staff did not tell Westlake who to
inteview and who not to.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:we should know WHO made the specific
suggestions.
rafik:@Marika better to explain the criteria that led to interviewes
selection. for example I see many board members inclucded, looking to
understand thw rationale
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:so Westlake selectively decided which
comments to publish, thanks for the clarification, Richard.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:I also want to know if negative comments
were made about other SG/Constituencies or only about NCUC in Westlake's
effort.
Marika Konings:@Rafik - that is a question for Richard/Westlake to
answer, but as I understand it, it was a combination of suggestions that
may have been received from staff, community members as well as aiming
to get further input from those that responded to the 360 assessment.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:why are so many staff included as
interviewees? that is not appropriate. I'd like to see the results
with those comments deleted.
rafik:@Marika and that is why I am looking for westlake answer :)
Marika Konings:@Rafik - I only saw Ray as a board member on the list ?
Stephanie Perrin:Bill Graham is a recent board member
rafik:@marika including former too
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Why didn't Westlake just go look at
NCUC's webpage to see the diversity of its EC, etc? Why wasn't a
pursuit for facts used (only perceptions)?
Marika Konings:@Rafik - some of the former board members have served
in other roles too, so their perspectives may have been of interest in
relation to those other roles and not necessarily their former board
position ;-)
Mary Wong:Again, to follow up on Marika's point, the Board members
listed as being interviewed are either past or present members of the
SIC - so some of them would have been part of the prior restructuring
exericise.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:The facts are readily available on the web.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:why not use facts.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:sounds like Westlake is relying on an
entirely "subjective" determination. Why not also include objective facts?
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Will Westlake please
comment on the statistical validity of a survey of 27 people commenting
on a group of 404 people?
Ron A:As I understand it, any person in the community had the
opportunity to bring their views forward regarding any part of ICANN GNSO...
James Gannon (Silent Observer NCUC/NCSG):It seems on a blind read of
the situation that there is major concern over the qualitiative and
subjective bias of the review compred to a fact based quantative review..
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:It is a Fact that 27 different people
have been on NCUC's EC for the last 10 years. It is a verifiable fact
that the NCUC EC includes 1 rep from each geographic region. Not using
these facts seems questionable.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):I'll comment. The
confidence interval of such a sample is 18.23% making the data
completely useless.
Philip:Comparing 27 to 404 in this context is completely useless.
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Thanks Philip.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:why did westlake decide to ONLY go the
subjective route?
Larisa Gurnick:@Robin - Westlake methodology includes multiple data
collection methods - quantitative and qualitative.
Sam Lanfranco [NCSG-NPOC]:@Morris Technically, the C.I . is 18.23% if
there is confidence in a sample being representative.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:Larisa, Richard just told us they decided
to go the subjective route. Otherwise, what objective facts were relied
upon?
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):@Sam. Good point. That
number is the best case scenerio for the survey!
Philip:A consultant's role is to report comments received. lets not
dismiss this please
Bill Drake:actually Philip I don't agree, the role is to do research
Philip:Well maybe both
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):@Philip. Comments
received - I agree. I'm having a problem with how they take faulty quant
methodology, use that to select "representative" comments...I guess I'm
questioning the 'representative' aspect. That's something we really
don'y know due to some very poor esearch design and methodology.
Stephanie Perrin:There is certainly an obligation to rely on facts
and filter for bias. No evidence of how potential bias is filtered, in
a fractious multi-stakeholder community where it is required.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:good point, Stephanie. How was "bias"
accounted for by Westlake?
Charla Shambley:You can view the 360 Assessment here:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/360-assessment-21aug14-en.pdf
Stephanie Perrin:Thanks Charla, I have been through all that data. I
can bring it to my university library and demonstrate the bias, but
frankly I do not see that as my job.
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:what criteria does westlake use for its
"professional selection" of what to provide?
Philip:Between bias and truth is perception.
Bill Drake:I understood the criteria to be what they think is relevant
Robin Gross [observer-NCSG]:and what do they think is relevant?
James Gannon (Silent Observer NCUC/NCSG):@robin those criteria will
be extremely important for everyone to understand any subjective
professional selection reccomendations by westlake
Ron A:Do I understand this right: Westlake is expecting comments on
this draft - or a new one coming out?
Robin Gross:On what evidence did Westlake base its recommendation
that additional constituencies will increase participation?
Bill Drake:faith based
Stephanie Perrin:Totally agree with Mike
Robin Gross:who is driving this bus any way?
Bill Drake:totally agree Mike
James Gannon (Silent Observer NCUC/NCSG):+1 Mike
Ron A:Agree - 20-30 days for community review and response.
Robin Gross:The community should be making this determination. Not
staff.
Philip:Agree it is more important t get this right than to get this done.
Robin Gross:Who is in charge? The community? Staff? Westlake?
Philip:Us surely
Bill Drake:surely
Robin Gross:Then we set the dates.
Robin Gross:And we decide when our report is ready for prime tme.
James Gannon (Observer NCUC/NCSG):Surely the WG need to be given time
to review before the public comment period of the full and complete report
Philip:Agree
Bill Drake:I'd like to comment on a complete draft before it goes out
the door for public comment
Robin Gross:Frankly, we are going to need another entirely new report
given the issues with this one.
Bill Drake:"Quality trumps timelines" is a good mantra
Robin Gross:And not exactly "bottom up"
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):Agreed Robin. The survey
is methodologically troubled it can not be fixed.
Bill Drake:Yes Stephanie it would be good if it were understood why
people volunteer their time
Philip:Agree completely with SP
Bill Drake:20 hours per week of pro bono to get abused is not really
a good deal
Robin Gross:Westlake works for us. We need to remember that.
Ron A:@ Bill: you are referring to us, right?! ;o)
Philip:In all ICANN hisory, this report on ICANN's policy development
body is the most important.
Bill Drake:Ron you got skin in the game!
Laura Covington:agree with Stephanie and Mike R
Edward Morris (observer/NCUC/GNSO Council):@Bill. Only 20?
Robin Gross:Right, Phillip, this is enormously important. Why on
earth rush it when the community is uncomfortable with methodology?
Bill Drake:Civil society people are crazy to try to work here. We
are treated better in the UN.
Bill Drake:I mean that
Robin Gross:Let's fix this and get it right.
Bill Drake:Human Rights Council meeting now in Geneva. CS people
really having productive engagement, and not being crapped on for their
efforts.
Stephanie Perrin:yes
Philip:Bye all. A very productive meeting. New call with new drfat
please.
Robin Gross:The community has spoken on this, with a rare one voice.
Terri Agnew:@Klaus, I see your mic is muted
Robin Gross:I hope these errors can be fixed in the next draft.
Stephanie Perrin:Thanks for chairing a difficult meeting!!
Ron A:Thanks all!
Bill Drake:thank you Jen, good chairing :-)
James Gannon (Observer NCUC/NCSG):Thanks all.
Rudi Vansnick:thanks
Robin Gross:Thanks, all. Bye!
Amr Elsadr - Observer/NCSG:Thanks all. Bye.
*__*
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